Jack Hayford: Pastor to Pastors

Jack Hayford: Pastor to Pastors

Pastor Jack Hayford being honored and presented an award at Gateway Church by Pastor Robert Morris in 2017. Originally launched in Los Angeles, The King’s University, a school founded by Hayford, is now located in Southlake, Texas, at Gateway Church.

By Steve Beard

Over the last 40 years, one of the most popular modern day hymns is “Majesty, Worship His Majesty” written by Jack Hayford. Congregations from all denominations around the globe have sung it with reverence and gusto.  

Included in The United Methodist Hymnal, the song was written in 1977 while Hayford and his family were vacationing through England during the 25th anniversary of the coronation of Queen Elizabeth. As they roamed through historic Blenheim Palace, the birthplace and ancestral home of Winston Churchill, Hayford was inspired by the regal surroundings.    

Thinking from the heart, he became mindful “that the provisions of Christ for the believer not only included the forgiveness for sin, but provided a restoration to a royal relationship with God as sons and daughters born into the family through His Majesty, Our Savior Jesus Christ.”  

As he was driving around England, Jack asked his beloved wife Anna to write down the words and melody. “So exalt, lift up on high, the name of Jesus/ Magnify, come glorify Christ Jesus, the King.”  

Hayford was filled with a powerful “sense of Christ Jesus’ royalty, dignity, and majesty …. I seemed to feel something new of what it meant to be his! The accomplished triumph of his Cross has not only unlocked us from the chains of our own bondage and restored us to fellowship with the Father, but he has also unfolded to us a life of authority over sin and hell and raised us to partnership with him in his Throne – Now!”

This is one of the many insights in Pastor Jack, the exceptional new biography of Hayford and his remarkable and prolific ministry as pastor, Bible teacher, author of 50 books, writer of more than 600 worship songs, church leader, and Christian statesman. It details the struggles and triumphs over Hayford’s 30 year pastoral guidance of The Church on the Way, his denominational commitment to The Foursquare Church, and to his larger role as an irreplaceable bridge-builder between Pentecostal/charismatic believers and the wider ecumenical Church.

Quite fittingly, Hayford’s international notoriety sprung from the memorable worship song. His thoughts on worship are a key factor in comprehending the longevity of his ministry. “In both the Old and New Testaments,” Hayford taught, “God’s revealed will in calling his people together was that they might experience his presence and power – not a spectacle or sensation, but in a discovery of his will through encounter and impact.”    

As a leader, Hayford was also faithfully committed to prayer, biblical exposition, racial reconciliation, teaching on the Kingdom of God, pursuing a supernatural ministry through a “crucified life,” praying for churches and leaders outside his own Pentecostal tradition, discerning the difference between “holy humanness and human holiness,” developing a “passion for fullness,” teaching on the “beauty of spiritual language” (speaking in tongues), and maintaining irrevocable honesty in his heart.

“My commitment to walk with integrity of heart calls me to refuse to allow the most minor deviations from honesty with myself, with the facts, and most of all, with the Holy Spirit’s corrections,” Hayford believed.

Hayford, 86 years old, “sees his private prayer life as the essential foundation of his ministry, and he deeply yearns to know and please God and live in radical dependence,” wrote biographer S. David Moore in Pastor Jack. “His journals are filled with prayers of confession, praise, and especially lament for his weaknesses and shortcomings. And yet almost always his journal entries end with grateful affirmation of God’s faithfulness to his promises. He is a devoted disciple of Jesus.”

“There is, in whatever one studies of Jesus, everything of humanity and nothing of superficiality; everything of godliness and nothing of religiosity,” wrote Hayford. “Jesus ministered the joy, life, health and glory of his Kingdom in the most practical, tasteful ways. There is nothing of the flawed habit of hollow holiness or pasted-on piety that characterizes much of the Christianity the world encounters.”

Authentic discipleship, to be “Spirit-formed” as Hayford calls it, involves nurturing an intimate relationship with God. In his relationship with Jesus, Hayford committed himself “to seek him daily (1) to lead and direct my path, (2) to teach and correct my thoughts and words, (3) to keep and protect my soul, and (4) to shape and perfect my life.”

Hayford’s love and concern for clergy of all traditions earned him the title of “pastor to pastors.” Despite coming from a relatively small classical Pentecostal denomination, his generous spirit had wide appeal. 

“Jack lived in a God-charged, open universe that challenged the reductionism of the modern world,” wrote Moore. “At a time in which reality came to be defined in purely naturalistic terms, dismissing the supernatural as antiquated folklore, Jack Hayford’s life and ministry offered a recovery of the biblical world, a world in which God is active and present in his creation.”

Whether he was teaching before 40,000 clergy in a football stadium or hosting a dozen pastors in his living room, Hayford was honored, appreciated, and respected. “For pastors of all stripes, whether Pentecostals or evangelicals, Jack made the voice of God and the supernatural world of the Bible seem so normal. He carefully explained the way he heard God speak, as his mother had to him, in terms that modern minds could make sense of. He also gave permission to pastors to see the work of the Holy Spirit in enlivening the biblical text so that it spoke to the present in meaningful ways.”

Steve Beard is the editor of Good News.  

Jack Hayford: Pastor to Pastors

All Things New

By Max S. Wilkins –

“And now I have a word for you who brashly announce, ‘Today – at the latest, tomorrow – we’re off to such and such a city for the year. We’re going to start a business and make a lot of money.’ You don’t know the first thing about tomorrow. You’re nothing but a wisp of fog, catching a brief bit of sun before disappearing. Instead, make it a habit to say, ‘If the Master wills it and we’re still alive, we’ll do this or that’” (James 4:13-15, The Message). 

As I read these words of James, I am struck by how timely they are for our lives. If 2020 proved anything, it clearly demonstrated that all our plans are subject to change. Not one of us knows what tomorrow holds. Yet, as the adage attests, “we may not know what the future holds, but we know Who holds the future!” 

As surprising as so many of the events of this past year have been, we can rest assured that God was not surprised. As Proverbs asserts, “wise men and women plan their ways, but the Lord orders their steps.” Those of us who walk by faith, also walk in the sure knowledge that God is still on the Throne; that the Glory of God still fills the whole earth; that the Kingdom of God is still unfolding all around us; that the Lord who saved us by his grace also created us for good works which he prepared beforehand for us to walk in; and that he who began a good work in us is able to bring it to completion. 

It has been a blessing to see the resilience of God’s people, watching as so many  have drawn deeply from our faith and the strength of the Lord. Multitudes have also reached out in love, care, and mutual support within our communities and among our neighbors. Together we have grieved our many losses, mourned with one another, battened down the hatches, done damage control, found reserves of patience and perseverance, and managed an acute crisis with grace and excellence.  

Some have been forced to make serious life changes, others have suffered significant loss, and many had to put a hold on major life events, hopes, and dreams – if not cancel them altogether. These things are all real, and we have the need to be gracious and understanding with ourselves and with each other as we experience them together. Yet, by God’s grace, those reading this are all still here, still alive, and far from simply surviving adrift in a sea of confusion, we all are still called, chosen, filled with the Spirit, and able to be the incarnational witnesses we know we are called to be. 

I read recently about how, during an ongoing crisis, both individuals and organizations must begin by doing acute crisis management. The fires must be doused, we need to figure out how to survive, and we often pull inward and prepare to ride out the storm. But when a crisis lingers, and particularly when it appears to be open-ended and ongoing, a shift in approach is called for. 

Some people will effectively move from acute crisis management to adaptive management. Those who are able to make that shift understand that things are not “going back to normal.” They will grasp that the world has changed, is changing, and that while there is a future and a hope, it will not look like what was left behind. Out of this understanding will emerge new ways and new opportunities. They  need not be looked upon as bad things. We do, after all, worship a Lord who said at the end of our Bible, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Everyone who is called to join Jesus in his mission will spend an eternity joining the Lord in new things. Making the shift to adaptive management will often lead us to see that the opportunities are greater than the losses. We will find ways to thrive. 

Many in the Church have fixed their eyes on Jesus, looked for what he is doing right where they are, and joined Jesus in those things. The result is amazing ministry, life change, and loving community breaking forth all around us. In many places the Church is not just surviving but thriving in these uncertain times. This is not to minimize the very real grief, suffering, loss, and challenge that so many experience. We will need to remain gracious and understanding with ourselves and one another in these trying times. Yet, God continues to fill us with passion, with purpose, and with opportunities for Kingdom witness. As John Wesley said with his last breath, just moments before he died, “Best of all, God is with us!”

Max A. Wilkins serves as the president at TMS Global. To learn more visit www.tms-global.org. 

Jack Hayford: Pastor to Pastors

Cotton Candy Christianity

By B.J. Funk –

Have you ever been to the Church of Cotton Candy Christianity? Hopefully, there’s not one in your town, though they sometime show up in the best of neighborhoods. Cotton Candy Christianity is a belief that holds no substance and a whole lot of sugary fluff. It dresses up in beautiful pastel colors, enticing you to taste its delicious flavor. However, the contents melt in your mouth as soon as you take your first bite. You are left with no nourishment. But your senses have been stimulated, making you want to ask for more.

Most people go to church looking for real answers to their heaviest needs. The church seeks to teach people how to journey deep down inside themselves, into that black pool where pain dwells, into those places that cannot find satisfaction with entertainment, technology, money, or food. In those places, the church’s input becomes paramount. There, life and death understandings take on a 911 call. In those wilderness places, the message of Christianity is the only answer that will bring peace. In those hungry places, the Bible touches us with solid guidance and real soul food.

My friend’s five-year-old granddaughter encourages me. Savannah says, slowly and seriously, “It just grieves my heart when my friends don’t know Jesus.” We may smile at her sweet sincerity, but Savannah has caught on to something essential. The difference is Jesus.  

Jesus Christ cannot live inside of Cotton Candy Christianity. He lives inside of you, inside of the real, live, beating hearts that hurt, cry, and seek answers. We cannot afford to settle for teachings without substance. Hungry sinners need solid food. The nourishment we need is found in only one place: Jesus.

By comparison, fluff dangles the colored, tasty cones over your face, brushing you with the delicious smell until before you know it, you are a believer! A believer in fluff, that is. No one bothers to tell you that fluff doesn’t last. Only Jesus, and him crucified will bring lasting satisfaction. But you don’t know that. The Church of Cotton Candy knows, but they’re not talking.

You pick up on the hype, the chants glorifying fluff and the songs that bring a twisted message of Christianity. All of the people around you are so happy that it doesn’t take long before you are happy too. You’re just not sure why. The organ music reminds you of those days long ago when as a child you went to the circus. When your daddy took you, and he bought you candy apples, popcorn, and, of course, cotton candy. You indulged with what looked good, just as this church does for you now.

Then, a more serious moment comes, as fluff worshipers take their seat for the morning message. It doesn’t really matter what the preacher says because you have already committed yourself to this preacher’s view. When you walk out today, you have received exactly what you came for: nothing.

But that’s okay with you. You like to live life on the safe side. If you take away something from the sermon and if by chance … God forbid … you begin to think, then you stand to lose. You might be ridiculed for taking a stand.  You might begin to feel a stirring in your heart. Each of those variables is way too risky. You leave satisfied. You got what you came for.

But you missed everything. Here’s what Streams in the Desert says you missed by attending the Church of Cotton Candy: “Yet the heartstrings of their old nature have not been broken, and their unyielding character, which they inherited from Adam, has not been ground to powder. Their soul has not throbbed with the lonely, gushing groans of Gethsemane. Having no scars from their death on Calvary, they will exhibit nothing of the soft, sweet, restful, victorious, overflowing, and triumphant life that flows like a spring morning from an empty tomb.” 

Lord Jesus, take my love for you into the deepest places of my soul. Break my heartstrings, ground my old nature, and hold me accountable. Pull me into a deeper hunger for you. Grant me the scars of Calvary, and if I even get on the outskirts of a church that doesn’t proclaim your holy name, grind me even harder. To thine be the glory. Amen.    

B.J. Funk is Good News’ long-time devotional columnist and author of It’s A Good Day for Grace.

Jack Hayford: Pastor to Pastors

The Good ol’ Boy and Divine Encouragement

He didn’t go to our church. The truth is, he probably wouldn’t have fit in very well. I went to “First Church” where most of the members were professionals – doctors, lawyers, bankers, successful business owners. And many in my hometown worked at the oil and gas plants that it was known for – that and the distinct, distasteful smell they generated. 

Those who worked at the plants and attended our church were executives and managers and engineers. Many of them had come from all over the country. He worked at one of the plants but he wasn’t like them. He was what we in Texas call “a good ol’ boy.” A laborer who drove a beat-up truck with a camper on the back, he didn’t wear the same clothes that my friends’ dads wore, wasn’t as cultured, wasn’t as successful, not in the way success is often measured.

I met him shortly after I had accepted Christ as a sixteen-year-old. A young man had been hired by our church for that summer and he led most of us to real faith in Jesus and our lives were changed. This was at the tail end of a revival that took place in the 1970s known as “The Jesus Movement.” It started with some hippies in California “getting saved” and then spread across the country. And in 1972 it reached my hometown and got me and my brother and the kids in my youth group. 

But the summer ended, and the young man went back to school, and we were left with a bunch of parents and a pastor who loved us but who didn’t really understand what had happened to us. Some parents even wondered if maybe we were taking things too far. All we wanted to do was pray and worship and study the Bible. One father, the head of one of the plants and probably the wealthiest man in the church, bought us a new pool table and a new ping pong table, thinking that would get us back to being more of a traditional youth group – what we called MYF (Methodist Youth Fellowship) back then.

But he understood. The guy in the truck who didn’t go to our church. He knew what it was like to be completely captured by Jesus. He knew what it was like to be so enthusiastic that others misunderstood you and maybe even worried about you a little bit. And he knew that we needed someone who understood and who blessed what God was doing in our lives.

We lived fifty miles from Houston where there were some great churches where the Spirit of God was moving. And he wanted us to see it, to be a part of it, to know what was possible. So, we’d climb into his truck and he’d take us on a Friday night to a Christian coffee house or on a Sunday morning to a church with great praise music and powerful preaching. And we figured out that even if our parents didn’t quite get it or our pastor was a little concerned, what we had experienced of God and his Holy Spirit was real. It was how a relationship with Jesus was meant to be.

When we started the school year, we began to hold meetings on Tuesday evenings in our homes and invite other kids to come. We’d sing and pray, and one of us would get up and share the Gospel. We’d ask someone’s mom if we could come over and if she would bake some cookies. We would never tell her that some nights two hundred teenagers would show up. But they did and we’d have to meet outside, spread out over three front yards. At the end, we’d give an invitation and ten or twenty young people would give their lives to Jesus. 

He was there. At every Tuesday night meeting we had. Not because he was a part of our church but because he loved us and he believed in us. He was there praying for us, watching us, watching over us. At the end he’d come up and say, “Boys, God really used you tonight.” “I could see God’s Spirit on you as you were preaching tonight.” “There’s a call on your life; you feel it, right?” “Oh, this is so good, what God is doing through you. No telling what he’s going to do with you in the future.”

The time he spent with us, the words he spoke to us, the encouragement he gave us, the vision he lifted up before us – the way he made us feel important and understood – the contribution he made to my life and the lives of others, I don’t know if I have ever been given a greater gift by anyone. I don’t know who I’d be or if I would have believed God was calling me into the ministry, if it hadn’t been for him. 

We have such huge problems we’re facing. The pandemic. The economy. Race relations. Finding a way for the UM Church to separate and go in different directions. We need to work on those things. We must. 

But I’ve come to believe it’s often the little things that make the biggest difference. A small act of kindness. A simple word of encouragement. Believing in someone and letting him or her know that we do. Throwing some kids in the back of your truck and taking them to where God is at work. And telling them when you see God using them.

You don’t have to be educated to do that. You don’t have to be wealthy to do that – or successful or cultured. You just have to have a heart for God and a heart for others. And someday, fifty year from now some guy may think back and wonder who he would have been without you. And with love in his heart and tears in his eyes will say, “Dear Jesus, thank you for him.”

The Stumble of Grace

The Stumble of Grace

By Carolyn Moore –

Ninth Station of the Cross. Photo by Zvonimir Atletic.

Like so many people, I’ve given chunks of time every day for months to pray against the virus, and against racism, and against all the crazy things that have cropped up as our collective nerves have gotten frayed. One of the best things I discovered during this season of prayer is the stations of the cross. I’d never had much use for them before. I think I just didn’t get them, but they’ve come alive for me in this season. I found out that you can pray the stations of the cross over just about anything and get clarity.

The stations of the cross are probably more familiar if you grew up Catholic or Orthodox. There are fourteen visual stations. The first one begins with Jesus being condemned to die and the last one is Jesus being laid in the tomb. The collection of them help us meditate from condemnation to death on the sacrifice of Jesus.

This is what I didn’t know about the stations of the cross before I first prayed them early on during our shut-down. I didn’t realize I could pray them over specific issues — that by meditating on the suffering of Jesus from condemnation to death as I prayed about the virus or about the sin of racism, I could see in a different light how Jesus suffered and died for those very things in order to overcome death and sin. I discovered the stations were a profound and rich way to bring the suffering of Jesus into our suffering. When we pray the stations contemplatively, we experience the truth that Jesus gets us. He loves us. He is in it with us.

The first time I prayed the stations with the virus in mind, I discovered a treasure embedded in this powerful, devotional visualization of Jesus’ journey toward his own crucifixion. At the third station, Jesus falls. He’d been condemned and handed a huge, heavy cross to carry, the same one he’d be nailed to. He was told to carry it to the place of his death, but eventually it became too much to carry. Too heavy. Jesus had already been beaten half to death and under that weight and in that weakened state, the Bible story tells us someone had to help him. It doesn’t specifically say he fell but it must have been obvious he needed help.

It is at the third station we think about Jesus falling for the first time under the weight of his cross.

But he gets up again and carries his cross a ways further down the road. Then at the seventh station we’re told to consider that Jesus might have fallen a second time. The fall itself isn’t in the scripture but the point of the station is to feel it, to feel the weight of this cross and all it holds and represents. This weight is more than just wood. It is us. It is everything we’ve done to make that cross a necessary burden to bear.

At the second fall, that weight seems unbearable. But Jesus keeps going. Somehow, he finds strength and purpose to get up again, to pick up this cross and keep carrying it with all that it holds. And now, if we are contemplating well, we are with him in this weight. We feel the pain. We taste the sweat and blood. We hear the people weeping and also the ones who are jeering, most of whom have no clue why.

Let’s be clear on this point. There is no Rocky Balboa moment among these stations of the cross, where Jesus catches his second wind. The scripture never says he one-hands the cross and trots up that hill. No. In fact, in the traditional stations of the cross there is a third stumble at the ninth station. It represents the struggle of this cross. It asks us to feel the full weight of the sin that piles on as we keep demanding our own way, the chronic impatience that is the default setting of humanity, the inability to see life from any other vantage point than our own.

That ninth station? It was the one that broke me the first time I prayed these stations with a group as we prayed against the virus. I know the Word well enough to know the backstory but still, I could feel the spirit behind this station. I became overwhelmed by the thought of stumbling people all around us — people who came into this crisis, into this year, already bearing the unbearable burdens of broken marriages and bad finances and addictions and illness. I could sense the pain of people who were already carrying more than they could bear, who had already stumbled more than once before they ever arrived at this pandemic.

That third stumble is also where we feel the cost of our own defects, of the things we so stubbornly hang onto because we can’t take one more change, or because we just don’t want to change. That is the weight he bore. And it wasn’t a game. It wasn’t easy. Yes, Jesus was all God, but he was also all human. He clearly felt the humanity of that walk up a hill with a cross on his back. Talk about courageous love! There is no power greater than the love of Jesus that compelled him to stand up from that stumble — not his, but yours — and to keep walking, to stay in it for the sake of all our stumbles. That ninth station asks us to see our part in this journey.

The tenth station of the cross represents the height of vulnerability as we contemplate them stripping Jesus of his garments so he would be left totally exposed. Do you think Jesus doesn’t feel your fear? Your horror at the thought of everyone finding out you’re a fraud? You think he doesn’t get what it feels like to be left hanging, literally hanging with no idea how all this is going to end, or when? My friend, Jesus gets you. He so gets you. That tenth station — Jesus brutalized, stripped, hanging — is the very image of truth and courage. Sheer strength.

Brene Brown’s definition of vulnerability is “having the courage to show up when you can’t control the outcome.” She says, “Vulnerability sounds like truth and feels like courage. Truth and courage aren’t always comfortable, but they’re never weakness.” When the Bible tells us that love always rejoices in the truth, we ought always to finish the sentence with, “… and truth takes courage.” Because it takes courage to stand, and then stand up again even when we stumble. It takes courage to be vulnerable and to admit when we are wrong and to stand up again and keep going. It takes courage to stay in the hard conversations, and to stay in community, and to stay in the fight but when we do, it is always in the spirit of Jesus. We surrender and we keep surrendering because Jesus keeps getting up again, keeps carrying that grace of a cross that bears what we can’t.

Jesus keeps finishing the work.

And we keep surrendering our heart because today, we may be carrying something we thought we could somehow bear on our own. And today, we may be adding to the weight of Christ’s sacrifice. Try as we might, at some point today we are going to demand our own way or get angry or impatient. At some point today, we’re going to stumble and what stands us up again is humility enough to surrender our weakness to the power of God. As Andrew Murray says, “Humility is the nothingness that makes room for God to prove his power.”

In recovery circles they say that daily surrenders are not how we keep from stumbling, but how we keep getting up again. We surrender as much of ourselves to as much of God as we understand and we keep surrendering, keep showing up even when we don’t get to control the outcome, because we trust the power of the cross to finish the work well.

Maybe the most courageous thing of all that we can do today is to fully own our selves — the good, the hard, the defects, the questions, the inadequacies and feelings of inadequacy, all of it. Maybe the most courageous thing we can do today is allow our hearts to be softened again by the love of a Messiah who knows what it feels like to stumble and who never gave up.

He never gave up on you then, and isn’t giving up on you now.

Carolyn Moore is the founding pastor of Mosaic United Methodist Church in Augusta, Georgia. She has written numerous books, including Supernatural: Experiencing the Power of God’s Kingdom (Seedbed). Dr. Moore serves as the Vice-Chair of the Council of the Wesleyan Covenant Association.

The Stumble of Grace

Happy Warrior

Dr. William J. Abraham. Photo credit: Perkins School of Theology.

Dr. William J. Abraham is an irreplaceable Irish import to United Methodism. He is an ordained elder of the Rio Texas Conference and the Albert Cook Outler Professor of Wesley Studies at Perkins School of Theology in Dallas. He is the author of numerous books such as Divine Revelation and the Limits of Historical Criticism (Oxford), Crossing the Threshold of Divine Revelation (Eerdmans), Canon and Criterion in Christian Theology (Clarendon), The Logic of Evangelism (Eerdmans), and Wesley for Armchair Theologians (Westminster John Knox).

Several years ago, Abraham and Dr. David F. Watson teamed up to write Key United Methodist Beliefs (Abingdon). Watson, professor of New Testament and academic dean at United Theological Seminary, is a frequent contributor to Good News. We asked Dr. Watson to interview his colleague and mentor about a future transition into a new project. What follows is their exchange.

Dr. David F. Watson: You’ll soon retire from the Albert Cook Outler Chair in Wesley Studies at Perkins School of Theology, having taught at Perkins for 36 years. When you look back over your time at Perkins, what brings you the greatest sense of accomplishment? Do you wish you’d done anything differently?

Dr. William J. Abraham: Perkins has been a perfect setting for my work across the years. I have always seen myself as working in internal exile where I need the stimulus of radically different positions to drive me to think things all the way to the bottom. At Perkins I have had a front-seat in the articulation of two competing visions of theology: a neo-liberal position brilliantly worked out by Schubert Ogden and then a liberationist vision shared across much of the faculty. Albert Outler’s unrevised vision of Methodism was also in the picture; as was the work of more conservative scholars like Bruce Marshall, one of the sharpest Catholic minds in contemporary theology.

The resources for study and travel have been terrific. Bridwell library is magnificent. I am proud to have been honored with the top awards in both teaching and scholarship as well as the Lifetime Achievement Award in the university given two years ago.

So, I have been a happy warrior in the academy. It was a great decision to come and stay here for thirty-six years of labor as teacher and scholar. One of my greatest accomplishments has been the training of a cadre of scholars in the Graduate Program in Religious Studies who are now my teachers. I have no regrets.

It was recently announced that you’ve taken a position as Director of the Wesley House of Studies at Baylor University’s Truett Seminary. No doubt you’ve received many offers to work with and for other institutions over the years. What prompted you to accept Baylor’s offer, and what are your hopes for the House of Studies?

The decision to retire took six months to make and was formalized in December last year; it was far from easy. Several factors weighed with me. The clock is ticking, and I have several academic projects to finish. I want to spend more time in the former Soviet Union and in Romania where I have worked for the last ten years, helping establish a new church. I felt my time at Perkins was complete and it was time to move on.

Above all I wanted to reorient my work and ministry and felt that it was time to do something different. The Baylor offer came totally out of the blue after I had already formally signed my contract to retire.

It rekindled my love for working on Wesley and Methodism; I have a new edition of the canonical sermons that reads them as a handbook of spiritual direction in the works. More importantly, we need to find new spaces to pursue work in the Wesleyan tradition; Baylor as a top-flight university is a perfect setting. My dream is that the Wesley House at Truett becomes a first-rate, global center for Wesley Studies and for training for ministry.

How do you respond to people who might say that Methodist students should not be educated at a Baptist institution?

Baylor is a delight because it takes the Christian faith, broadly conceived, seriously as a university. This will be change from the more secular orientation that I currently occupy. Truett is a young school and full of energy with top-notch leadership in place. The Baptist heritage will provide friendly competition to provoke us to love and good works, including good intellectual work for the sake of the Wesleyan tradition. Sociologically, United Methodists tend to look up to the bigger battalions in church history while looking down on those beneath it; so, I know the game that is being played. Time will tell, but I bet in years to come the fruits in ministry will speak for themselves.

Dr. Abraham speaks at a gathering of the Wesleyan Covenent Association. Photo by Steve Beard.

It’s almost certain that a new, traditional Methodist denomination will form next year after the 2021 General Conference. What are your thoughts about how theological education should look for this new denomination? What should we do differently than we have in the past?

We face a cataclysmic future in theological education in United Methodism. Let’s be frank, even our best schools have not been hospitable to conservative students and faculty for years. This is going to get worse, so the challenge for the new church is enormous. We certainly have enough schools to be a platform on which to build. However, we will need to be creative as we move forward.

We need to have as much person-to-person teaching as possible; the crisis with Covid-19 makes this clear. If we could get a degree-granting institution to cooperate, we could look at the German Model where students can take intensive courses with the best of the best in various sites across the nation. Think of an itinerating tabernacle of scholars and students brought together to study and learn. In the worst-case scenario, we can always fall back on the online option; but we have to recognize the limitations of this option. We will find a way forward, but it will take time.

Over the years we’ve had many conversations about international theological education. In the United Methodist Church we’ve sometimes done well in this regard, and sometimes we haven’t. What challenges and opportunities do you see in the days ahead for the new denomination as it attempts to implement international programs for theological education?

This is way above my paygrade! My preference, as happens in my current work in Russia, is to do on-site teaching. Cliff College in England is the epicenter of innovation in this area and their work is very impressive. So, we will find a way forward. We need input from global Methodism; this requires supporting schools outside the United States so that they will have their own voice and integrity.

At present you’re finishing up a four-volume work on divine action. What do you mean by “divine action,” and why is it so important that you would devote four volumes to it?

Divine action is simply short hand for particular claims about what God has done, say, in history, or is doing now, say, in our lives and in particular providence. Once we look under the surface there are a host of issues to pursue. I have been working on them for fifty years and am now completing volume four. The first volume unpacks and resolves objections to divine action; the second is an immersion in the premodern tradition which identified various worries about specific divine actions; the third is devoted to systematic theology; and the fourth lays out an on-going agenda for the future.

I first got interested in the topic because of my dissatisfaction with Calvinism; I was smitten with issues related to human action in my undergraduate work in analytic philosophy and experimental psychology; and over time I was convinced that I could solve certain long-standing debates, such as the relation between grace and freedom.

That said, I have deliberately pursued serious detours into other terrain, notably, evangelism, the epistemology of theology, and Wesley Studies. I am currently pursuing long-standing interests in the relation between theology and politics. All these have provided invaluable insights on issues related to divine action. At heart I remain an Irish Methodist doing what I can for the fresh articulation of our heritage.

Your influence on at least two generations of orthodox, Wesleyan scholars has been considerable. For many of us, you’ve been a model, even a spiritual father. What advice do you have for those who have come after you in this work of preserving the faith once and for all entrusted to the saints?

I appreciate the kind words! On advice, let me try telegrams. Be anchored in a discipline that requires rigorous standards of excellence; for me that has been analytic philosophy. Stand by the truth and work on it until it becomes essential to your identity. Never, ever be up for sale, as far as the revelation of God mediated in Scripture is concerned. Stay grounded in regular ministry in the church. Take the politics of institutions seriously; be street-smart. Know your critics better than they know themselves. Always keep political commitments penultimate. Fast and pray as best you can!